Curse

Cuilan · Mar 09, 2010, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Zealous Vow SY builds are basically spam the attacks as much as you can. Kinda like many of the good dagger builds as A/W. Is this really the way you want dervish buffed? An assassin that can strike multiple foes?

*Edit: In PvE

Karate Jesus · Mar 09, 2010, 02:06 AM // 02:06

In PvE? Um....it's fine.

Dervs still do less damage than Hammer Warriors, Sins, and pretty much every other profession. They definitely need a buff for PvE.

Oh, even D/N orders is now outclassed by E/N orders.

Chthon · Mar 09, 2010, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Are you posing a find-the-optimal-build question or a game design question?

If the former, then yes, you should run that build; It's definitely the best thing dervs have going for them under the current skill balance.

If the latter, then no; That's a totally redundant role.

Karate Jesus · Mar 09, 2010, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

If the former, then yes, you should run that build; It's definitely the best thing dervs have going for them under the current skill balance.

Actually, this build is pretty awesome too.

Kopa The Demon King · Mar 09, 2010, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Dervish need a buff in terms of damage output in any way because otherwise they fall under the bar set by wariors in tanking, and under the bar set by sins in damage output.

The dervish needs a good station in which it can set its foot down, and zealous vow though a strong skill is not how i want things to go...It may be good but i mean Dervs when they get buffed or nerfed they are left with ONE choice, and leaves the dervish useless in all other forms of combat. the derv is a well rounded class but it doesnt take advantage of ANYTHING it can do, thanks to A-net nerfing it to hell. It needs something, and if zealous vow is it then zealous vow it shale be.

I think a dervish should be set as a Condition inflicting DPS class based in a Midline format to back up the tank.

Grim Aragorn · Mar 09, 2010, 03:03 AM // 03:03

tbh soldiers stance builds are total trash on dervish, sure the blocking is nice but if u stock up on fast activation time skills u dont really need an IAS, and even with a zealous scythe/zealous sweep you wont be able to keep energy up enough to spam a-scan and attacks

Z-vow is much better in the long run, even if it gets stripped it has a fast cooldown. Use a vamp scythe and go to town (Strength and Honor+Aura+AsuraScan+Iats=lol pve)

Valkyrie250 · Mar 09, 2010, 03:07 AM // 03:07

I want dervishes to be more like tanks. Right now dervishes are more like slightly squishy enchanters who are DPS. I want to see the DPS stay but I also want to see the dervish play more a role in PvE. Most people look on the dervish in the meta of PvE as more of a downer than an asset. I dont like that. I really want some buffs for PvE dervish.

_Nihilist_ · Mar 09, 2010, 01:40 PM // 13:40

/notsigned for the Tank idea. If you want Tanks, go play one of the many MMO's that can only function with Tank n Spank, there are better ways to experience GW.

Slasher of Darkness · Mar 09, 2010, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Aragorn

Z-vow is much better in the long run, even if it gets stripped it has a fast cooldown. Use a vamp scythe and go to town (Strength and Honor+Aura+AsuraScan+Iats=lol pve)

What aura do you mean here? I either don't know or can't remember. Thanks

Xenomortis · Mar 09, 2010, 02:30 PM // 14:30

The trouble with the Dervish is that he's trying to do the exact same thing as 2 other classes and the Warrior and the Assassin don't leave anything to be desired.
Turning him into a tanking class is pathetic and an enchantment based frontliner (the premise of the Dervish) just isn't generally considered a good idea.

At best all you can do is make him sufficiently powerful to compete with the Warrior and Assassin and he does this.
If I was making a team I wouldn't mind a Warrior, Sin or Derv - they all adequately fulfill the "kill shit now" role. The only time I may object is when I really want to use Mark of Pain, but then I can just tell the derv not to bring AoHM (and even then, it doesn't really matter).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slasher of Darkness

What aura do you mean here? I either don't know or can't remember. Thanks

Aura of Holy Might - commonly referred to as AoHM.

Yuna Matsumarui · Mar 09, 2010, 03:13 PM // 15:13

I think the derv was meant to be juggling with enchantments, to receive bonusses. as in the effect of
-AoE bleed
- Damage (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak) (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Sand_Shards) (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mystic_Sandstorm)
- Conditons (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Staggering_Force) (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Aura_of_Thorns)

these effects ofcourse don't take place when you want them, so they've added skills who let you control your effects taking place. (Pious Assault-Twin Moon Sweep-Signet of Pious Light)

these skills ofcourse add effects to themselves as well.

so let's say your running a derv with 12 Mysticism, 9 Scythe Mastery, and 9 Earth Prayers.
you use Aura of Thorns, Adjacent Foes are Crippled, then you use Twin Moon Sweep. you gain 38 +12 health, and 4 energy.

this whole combo cost you 6 energy (4 if you were using a zealous scythe, and hitting 1 foe) , crippled, added bleeding dealth double dmg and healed you for 50 health.

I don't see what's wrong with that, though because this PvE Meta revolves around dealing dmg, or supporting your partymembers dervishes have no role. (ofcourse one could argue that the wind prayers line has party support, such as Dwayna's Touch for healing a fellow frontliner that's in danger, or Mystic Healing for some quick support on your backline.

I believe that this was the who dervish idea, bring dmg and support. however, since we focus on either healing or dmg (who sees warriors bringing self heals these days, prot spirit + spirit bond and ur good to go) dervishes are outderv't by other classes.

NO! dervishes are outscythed by other classes (WE Scythe, Critscythe), and the dervish has disappeared, because the other options just give better options to deal damage.

so you bring Zealous Vow you say?

still autocrits and Armor Penetration > Mysticism.

the dervish is imo only preferred as a tank over a warrior in Pve in areas where there are no enchantment removal skills, which are pretty rare - especially in high end Pve.

Slasher of Darkness · Mar 09, 2010, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Aura of Holy Might - commonly referred to as AoHM.

Meh so that's why I didn't recognize it, used to see AoHM

My bad, my bad.

Arrogant Bastard · Mar 09, 2010, 08:04 PM // 20:04

With prots (PB or PS) and cons, there is almost no difference between scythe dervs, sins, and wars (except A/D can't use SY).

Therefore, in difficult/elite areas where ER bonders and essence is used, it doesn't matter which are taken for damage.

If comparing all melee builds, then wars and sins will be better with certain teams:
-Dagger sins can trigger buffs faster and more often
-100b wars have the best synergy with MoP

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 09, 2010, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Way back when, Pious Assault used THIS function, and some of the enchantments that functioned like Grenth's Fingers (begin effect, 20 seconds, end effect) had bigger damage and lower recharge, which made Dervishes effective enchantment jugglers by casting the enchantments, using Pious to cancel it, ect.

Now however, Pious has been changed completely, the enchantments nerfed, and even if they brought it back, the overall damage expectancy of melee characters have skyrocketed since then. That along with HM in general, the build still wouldn't hold it's ground. It was however very cool and interesting to play.

So, the answer is no, they shouldn't, but Anet made them that way anyway, sadly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

With prots (PB or PS) and cons, there is almost no difference between scythe dervs, sins, and wars (except A/D can't use SY).

Therefore, in difficult/elite areas where ER bonders and essence is used, it doesn't matter which are taken for damage.

Except Sins blast through enemies using crits, which the scythe is awesome with, and Warriors have Strength to abuse.

Dervs have none of these, so they will always come in third when using the weapon they were designed to use :/

Arrogant Bastard · Mar 09, 2010, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Way back when, Pious Assault used THIS function, and some of the enchantments that functioned like Grenth's Fingers (begin effect, 20 seconds, end effect) had bigger damage and lower recharge, which made Dervishes effective enchantment jugglers by casting the enchantments, using Pious to cancel it, ect.

Now however, Pious has been changed completely, the enchantments nerfed, and even if they brought it back, the overall damage expectancy of melee characters have skyrocketed since then. That along with HM in general, the build still wouldn't hold it's ground. It was however very cool and interesting to play.

So, the answer is no, they shouldn't, but Anet made them that way anyway, sadly.

Except Sins blast through enemies using crits, which the scythe is awesome with, and Warriors have Strength to abuse.

Dervs have none of these, so they will always come in third when using the weapon they were designed to use :/

With tons of defense and buffs, all three will plow through anything at relatively the same speed.

FoxBat · Mar 10, 2010, 02:37 AM // 02:37

The "solution" has always been damn simple. Rework Aura of Holy Might like so:

Enchantment spell, 10e, 25r. 5 seconds + 3 for every rank of mysticism. When you cast, does X holy damage to nearby foes. Your deal x% damage with a weapon and your dervish enchantments recharge twice as fast. (Does not convert damage type.)

Doesn't mess up orders or even conjure, doesn't work on secondaries, doesn't screw up PvP, lets you perma heart of fury or have fun cycling enchantments. Scythe is a plenty powerful weapon in PvE, just nerf it on sins/wars and people will shut up.

Chthon · Mar 10, 2010, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

The "solution" has always been damn simple. Rework Aura of Holy Might like so:

Enchantment spell, 10e, 25r. 5 seconds + 3 for every rank of mysticism. When you cast, does X holy damage to nearby foes. Your deal x% damage with a weapon and your dervish enchantments recharge twice as fast. (Does not convert damage type.)

Doesn't mess up orders or even conjure, doesn't work on secondaries, doesn't screw up PvP, lets you perma heart of fury or have fun cycling enchantments. Scythe is a plenty powerful weapon in PvE, just nerf it on sins/wars and people will shut up.

I agree. Take the stupid damage type conversion off AoHM (and the avatars for that matter) and dervishes become a LOT more viable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Aragorn

Use a vamp scythe and go to town (Strength and Honor+Aura+AsuraScan+Iats=lol pve)

AoHM is not advisable for all the reasons I explained in the other thread. Unless it's a H+H team or a no-synergy PUG, use EBSoH instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Actually, this build is pretty awesome too.

That build appears to have huge energy problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

If I was making a team I wouldn't mind a Warrior, Sin or Derv - they all adequately fulfill the "kill shit now" role.

I generally disfavor PUG dervs on the grounds that there is basically ONE good derv build out there now, and the odds are very high that any given PUG derv does not have the skills for it. Add to that the fact that bad derv builds tend to be a lot worse than bad war or sin builds, and it's still not a class I'd go anywhere near unless I know the person running it.

Quote:

The only time I may object is when I really want to use Mark of Pain, but then I can just tell the derv not to bring AoHM

Given how awesome the new Blood Bond is, especially with scythe's mini-AoE, and that Orders fits well with Blond Bond, I'm pretty much inclined to not run AoHM any time I have enough control over the team to fit an Orders-SoH hero in.

Xenomortis · Mar 10, 2010, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Given how awesome the new Blood Bond is, especially with scythe's mini-AoE, and that Orders fits well with Blond Bond, I'm pretty much inclined to not run AoHM any time I have enough control over the team to fit an Orders-SoH hero in.

AoHM adds more damage than Orders does (generally anyway). http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...6&postcount=48
I might have taken screenshots at the time, but I have a mess of folders and I don't feel like looking.
It's easy to check though.

With the way AoHM currently works, removing the damage conversion would make it insanely over powered. Already it's the single greatest damage buff, but comes with the restriction that few other buffs work with it.

The conversion on the Avatars is annoying, but they're seldom used and typically with AoHM anyway. However if Avatar of Grenth didn't convert to Cold damage you'd get a pretty good damage boost using it under Orders (AoG + OotV + BB would give a pretty durable frontliner too).

But Orders synergise with Dervs in another way. It's one of the few times a Derv's primary attribute is worthwhile. If OotV is being spammed on recharge then with 9 in Mysticism the Dervish essentially has 1.5 extra pips of regeneration (6 sec duration enchantment, 3 energy gain on expiration, reapplied immediately after it expires) and 2 pips with 12. With a Zealous Scythe you should be coming onto par with Zealous Vow (although you might need the occasional Zealous Sweep). That frees up your elite slot (although there isn't much that's very exciting for a Dervish).

As for PuG dervs; well I don't much like PuG sins or warriors either.
If I see their build is shit I ping what I want them to run and if they can run it, fine, if they can't they go. Fortunately I'm generally not the person trying to organise everything.

Chthon · Mar 10, 2010, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

AoHM adds more damage than Orders does (generally anyway). http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...6&postcount=48

The correct comparison is AoHM vs Orders + EBSoH, since I'm advocating a switch from AoHM to EBSoH. (And I think it's legitimate to assume that you will not have a copy of EBSoH up on the front line unless you give it to a ZV or WE guy.) The result is that AoHM does more damage on a Scanned target (and sometimes the off targets depending on their armor), but not so much more that the AoE buff on EBSoH doesn't outweigh it if you've got a couple other allies in the ward.

Quote:

But Orders synergise with Dervs in another way. It's one of the few times a Derv's primary attribute is worthwhile. If OotV is being spammed on recharge then with 9 in Mysticism the Dervish essentially has 1.5 extra pips of regeneration (6 sec duration enchantment, 3 energy gain on expiration, reapplied immediately after it expires) and 2 pips with 12. With a Zealous Scythe you should be coming onto par with Zealous Vow (although you might need the occasional Zealous Sweep). That frees up your elite slot (although there isn't much that's very exciting for a Dervish).

Many people seem fond of the DW elites. If avatars were fixed to not convert damage type, then they would be excellent candidates for a freed elite slot, particularly Grenth.

reaper with no name · Mar 11, 2010, 08:11 AM // 08:11

I apologize for not getting to this thread sooner.

As we all know, once upon a time dervishes spammed enchantments and stripped them with powerful attacks. This got nerfed, then power creep created things even more powerful.

That's what the dervish was supposed to do. Unfortunately, at this point, without a major rework, even if it were brought back, such builds would still be inferior to what dervishes already have. And if they were made more powerful than attack skill spam, well, they'd probably be overpowered.

So, the short answer is, all dervishes have that they can be good at is the scythe. They need buffs for that. It would be nice if they were made to do what they originally were meant to, but at the same time it would probably be either useless or overpowered, so it might be better not to go that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Aragorn

tbh soldiers stance builds are total trash on dervish, sure the blocking is nice but if u stock up on fast activation time skills u dont really need an IAS, and even with a zealous scythe/zealous sweep you wont be able to keep energy up enough to spam a-scan and attacks

Z-vow is much better in the long run, even if it gets stripped it has a fast cooldown. Use a vamp scythe and go to town (Strength and Honor+Aura+AsuraScan+Iats=lol pve)

I agree with all of that except the part about IAS. You still want that even on a ZV build, because not only does it affect your attack skills, but even with them you are still going to be autoattacking a lot, so you still need an IAS. Oddly enough, if HoF didn't suck so much and could be maintained (I mean seriously, unmaintainable AND located in a useless attribute line? Give me a break; when was the last time anyone even paid ATTENTION to Flail's downside in PvE?), the dervish would be able to outscythe the warrior.